How can spiritual direction impact leaders and congregations? In this episode Eunhyey Lok reflects on the role of spiritual direction, its benefits for personal and church growth, distinctions from counseling, and tips for finding a spiritual director.
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What does the post-pandemic and post-disaffiliation United Methodist Church (UMC) look like? In this episode, Jessica Anschutz speaks with Doug Powe, Director of the Lewis Center, and Lovett Weems, Senior Consultant, who discuss the challenges and opportunities facing the United Methodist Church. They highlight regionalization, the need for structural reform, and changes to the ordination process, while advocating for renewed focus on mission. To remain vital, the UMC must balance sustaining traditional practices with disruptive innovation to connect with underserved communities while fostering spiritual growth and inclusivity.
Jessica Anschutz: Welcome to Leading Ideas Talks, a podcast featuring thought leaders and innovative practitioners. I am Jessica Anschutz, the Associate Director of the Lewis Center for Church Leadership, and I am your host for this Leading Ideas Talk. Joining me is Eunhyey Lok, an ordained PCUSA pastor, spiritual director, and licensed marriage and family therapist. Thank you, Eunhyey, for taking time to speak with me about spiritual direction today.
Eunhyey Lok: Well, I’m excited to be here.
Jessica Anschutz: To start us off, why don’t you share with our audience what is spiritual direction?
Eunhyey Lok: Wow. So that’s a little bit of a tricky question in that there are lots of different forms of spiritual direction. I will speak to the form that I’ve been trained in which comes out of the Christian contemplative tradition, supposedly going back as far as, like, the desert fathers and mothers, maybe some would say further. But for me, what I understand spiritual direction to be is a space that’s created for people to pay attention more deeply to what’s happening in their souls and with God in their lives. And the way that would happen is the spiritual director would hold a safe place and both of the people in the room, the directee and the director, their main focus is going to be—especially the director’s focus—is going to be on listening to the Holy Spirit and listening to the directee and seeing where those places of contact where God’s movement seems to be the most active, or where there just seems to be something that God is touching in the person that’s speaking and that they’re listening to. In many ways, the director is a soul companion or a soul friend, and someone who is committed to listening and not telling you what to do or giving you advice. In fact, director is kind of a misnomer, at least in the tradition that I was trained in, because it’s one of the least directive ways of being with somebody for the sake of their relationship with God and the Spirit.
Jessica Anschutz: Thank you so much for, for that answer. Now I’m curious, you are also a counselor. So, what is the difference between spiritual direction and counseling or having a spiritual director and having a counselor?
Eunhyey Lok: Yeah, I think that’s a wonderful question because I see both of them as sort of ways of becoming more fully who God intended us to be. In many ways, I think of counseling as a form of discipleship, where you’re investigating and seeing the parts of your character that are informed by your thoughts, your emotions, as well as your behavior, and especially your interpersonal behavior, so your relationships. Counseling is going to be focusing on those aspects of the human being. And then spiritual direction is going to be focusing a lot more on your soul and your, your walk with God. There’s definitely overlap. Like, in spiritual direction, deep emotional family issues are going to come up and in counseling, especially if they’re coming to me because I am a Christian therapist, issues of their spirit and their relationship with God as it impacts their emotions and their daily functioning, that’s going to come up too. So, there’s definitely overlap but the focus and the goals are different.
Jessica Anschutz: So spiritual direction, really focusing on connection with the holy and with, with God. Given that, who should seek spiritual direction?
Eunhyey Lok: Oh, well, because I’m a fan and because I’ve benefited so much, I kind of say everybody. And it’s especially helpful for people who feel like they’ve hit a wall with the ways of interacting with God and the body of Christ that they’re used to. So, for me personally, it came at a time when I was serving full time in ministry for an organization that helped connect people with opportunities overseas. So, I was a mobilizer, basically, and a big part of my job was mentoring people, listening to people. I never stopped believing all the basic tenets of what it means to follow Jesus. But every time I would, you know, share the gospel with somebody, internally, it fell flat. There was something missing. And so, definitely, I would not have used those words back then, but I’ll use them now. I felt like I hit either like a complete, like, period of dryness, or a wall. And then when I started receiving spiritual direction, it was like drinking from a well in the middle of a desert. And I think the difference was that it was such a different space where I didn’t have to have the answer and I wasn’t asking somebody for the answer, but instead there was a lot of walls taken down so that I could experience God in a different way.
Jessica Anschutz: Thank you so much for sharing part of your, your personal story and, and how spiritual direction has benefited you. What benefits do you see to spiritual direction in church leaders specifically?
Eunhyey Lok: Church leaders are maybe the number one group of people. Actually, anybody in a caregiving role. Somebody who spends a lot of their focus on other people, and who also can’t just talk to anybody off the street because of issues of privacy.
They want to respect the people who are coming to them. So, therapists are in this category, other spiritual directors. Yeah, but definitely ministry leaders are right in there because in spiritual direction, there’s a lot of expectations being removed. And I think that can be a real weight off of a lot of leaders. And just knowing that there’s somebody there for you. Because even though you can call a spiritual director a “soul friend,” it’s not a mutual relationship. The director is there for you, to offer you a space to pay attention to what’s happening between you and God, between you and yourself, which is hard to do without some kind of safety. And so, ideally, when you find the right spiritual director, that space can be created for you. And a lot, a lot of things start to come out when your soul is feeling safe
Jessica Anschutz: You mentioned finding the right spiritual director, and I’m curious what you would advise people who are looking for a spiritual director to look for. Or, how do you know when you found the right one?
Eunhyey Lok: Well, I think it’s worthwhile doing a sort of interview process. If you know anybody who maybe has interest in the contemplative form of spirituality that you might ask them, like, because they, they know you a little bit and they might be aware of some spiritual directors. You can meet people virtually; you can meet people online. The best way is kind of to start with your own personal networks, just kind of ask around, has anyone done spiritual direction? Do you have a director? And start from there. But I also could recommend, on the East Coast, the Shalem Institute is a great resource.
There is a very large organization that is not exclusively Christian, but they have a lot of Christian spiritual directors on there called Spiritual Directors International and their website is sdicompanions.org.
Since directors aren’t really limited by state boundaries or even national boundaries, if there’s somebody that you’ve read that happens to be a spiritual director, you might want to reach out to them and say, “Hey, do you know of anybody that would be a good fit for me?”
I trained with Christian Formation and Direction Ministries in Southern California, and they have a website called cfdmsoutherncalifornia.org. And if you say, “I am interested in a director,” and you share a little bit about what you’re looking for, they might be able to get back to you with some names as well. I very much appreciated how they trained me and I, I get referrals for my own direction from, from them as well.
Jessica Anschutz: So, when you’re looking for a spiritual director, what are the things you’re looking for to find that good match? What are just some examples of what you might consider?
Eunhyey Lok: For me, I look for somebody who really listens for what God is doing and is able to reflect back and highlight—without that many words—what’s happening. Because the fewer words are said, the more it kind of falls back on me to see, to pay attention to what’s happening inside.
That said for me personally, I do appreciate sometimes when they might offer: “I noticed this,” or “that brings up this in me,” a little bit of what, you know, in the therapy world we’d call self-disclosure, personally, I kind of find that helpful. And sometimes I might flat out ask “well, what do you think?” And a good spiritual director will take that and help you go deeper with where is that question coming from. But so, somebody who really can pay attention and is listening and has a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit and to you. And they may not have the same background as you, but they are caring for you. There’s something about you that they are drawn to and interested in as well.
I think for me personally, as a person of color, like it’s very helpful when I know that they have either training or, or like lived experience in the giving direction and being a person of color in the contemplative world. So that’s a very different dynamic as well. So, I appreciate that.
Jessica Anschutz: Those are helpful things to think about, especially if someone is going to pursue spiritual direction. Drawing on your own experience, how do you see spiritual direction impacting ministry?
Eunhyey Lok: I’m going to go out on a limb and say, I think it’s almost essential. If not spiritual direction, then something like it that can help create a space for the ministry leader or leaders where they are reminded that it’s not up to them and also, their, their value and worth in this world is not dependent on how much they produce. So, if we are living in that mode, especially without awareness of it, then ultimately damage is done to the person themselves. And then, of course, it’s going to bleed out into other people as well.
But when we’re sort of drawn into like the desert, for example, and the spiritual direction session can be a sort of isolated space as well with one other person where you are given a place of rest. And in that rest, you can discover, especially over time, what are the things that are driving me and is that really what I understand God’s life on this earth to be? Is this congruent with what I understand God…God created me and this world for. Or you can also take it to your local body of Christ. Is the way that we’re living life together as a body, is this congruent with what the gospel is saying reality is supposed to be? And I think those kinds of spaces take some intentionality in order to sort of peel away the layers. If you don’t have a spiritual director, then I think the other way that that can happen is through times of solitude. Somebody used this phrase, you know, a long time ago, which I’ve always appreciated, who are you when no one else is looking? Or when only God is looking? And I think that reveals a lot. And spiritual direction is one safe place where one person is looking, but they’re there for you, not you for them. So, you’re not having to perform or be on. Especially if you’re feeling stuck as a leader, that can really help unpack that.
Jessica Anschutz: I can see where that would be immensely helpful to folks. And I think especially right now, so many leaders are burned out from the pandemic and making all of those shifts and, and trying to find that right alignment with the context in which they’re serving, their own leadership, and their relationship with, with God.
Now, I know that you have some specialty in spiritual direction for folks serving in cross-cultural contexts and I want to give you the opportunity to kind of share how spiritual direction can support folks in, in a cross-cultural context.
Eunhyey Lok: I’m going to maybe throw this out in two directions. If the person that I’m seeing is someone who is a person of color, then living in the U.S. is like a constant like cross-cultural experience, code switching and living in the world that the dominant majority culture as well as in the culture of people’s homes, or in a third culture altogether, like, that kind of living is a stressor all on its own.
And so having a space where you are understood, and that’s why for people of color finding somebody who understands your racial ethnic background can really be this layer of relief, of a sigh of rest, where you don’t have to explain or defend, but even if the person is not a person of color, you can build that safety as well. If they are not coming with assumptions, and they’re having an attitude of cultural humility, attitude of learning without making you be their teacher necessarily, that can work as well. I have had a lot of mentors. My supervisor is not a person of color, and I feel very supported by her.
And if you are someone who is of the dominant culture and you’re working with people, cross culturally, spiritual direction is another one of those places where you can bring with you all of the dynamics. Or you are a person of culture, but you’re working in a different context of other people of color. There is so much that comes up in cross-cultural interactions where your own assumptions are constantly challenged. And it, it takes work. It’s, it’s a labor and learning process, which in the end benefits us as cross-cultural learners. But it also takes a lot of energy. So, so having somebody who can help you process that without judgment, and to see how all of that wrestling, all of that struggling and digging and searching, how that connects with who God made you to be. It’s a really, potentially huge discovery of what God is like and who you are as a child of God through these cross-cultural interactions, which can be unpacked in that safe space of direction.
Jessica Anschutz: I appreciate your, your willingness to, to share more about that. Because folks in cross-cultural contexts are faced with not only the challenges of day-to-day today ministry, but, but those issues that you have, you have raised. And I’m grateful that spiritual direction can be a source of, of support, for them.
So now I, I want us to think about folks who may be cynical about spiritual direction and what is it that you would want the cynics to know about spiritual direction. Why would you say to them that it’s worthwhile?
Eunhyey Lok: Well, I think I would first want to understand where their cynicism is coming from. I’d love to say that spiritual direction is for everybody, but it does take someone who is willing to take initiative in their own spiritual journey and is looking for something in particular, like looking to go deeper, looking for some way to understand the world, and their own lives, and God in a way maybe that isn’t being held up by what they’ve had before.
So, if, if a person is not at that place, maybe they’re right. Maybe they don’t need spiritual direction. But if they also believe that it’s not for anybody, then maybe what I might offer to them is, there might be something in their cynicism. First of all, that God’s going to love them for anyway, but that other people, um, may need a different kind of space than they’re happy with to be able to discover that, that they are fully accepted, loved, and known by God. And it’s okay to ask questions and interact with God about them. And that there are people willing to journey with you in that way as well.
Jessica Anschutz: I appreciate your, your willingness to, to engage the question, but also that the openness with which you offer yourself to folks to be able to ask those questions, and to explore and to see.
Eunhyey Lok: Hmm. I appreciate that. Thank you.
Jessica Anschutz: I think there are benefits, right. Potentially for anyone, but you do have to come with a spirit of openness in order to, to reap those benefits and your willingness to work at it. It may not happen just in one session or experience, right? I’ve heard you say a couple of times in our conversation together, like it can take time.
Eunhyey Lok: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
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Jessica Anschutz: So, in thinking about our audience, it’s primarily church leaders, clergy, and laity. How do you hope spiritual direction may impact them?
Eunhyey Lok: One thing, this is not directly an answer to your question, but I was thinking about making it accessible to people. Group spiritual direction is a very simple way to introduce to like your whole church or your ministry team. And all it really takes is like a timekeeper. If you have somebody who is a good listener, and is firm enough to be able to say, help people redirect if they’re sort of going off on a tangent. I’ve introduced that to my own church in different formats and experimented with it in different groups. And it’s almost instantly accessible to people because all it does is take some willingness for people to listen to the Spirit and ask themselves several questions after they’ve spent some time listening to someone sharing about what’s going on. And with some small, gentle coaching of avoiding things like talking about what they think you should do or, you know, advice giving, like not doing any of that, or immediately launching into what’s going on for them without reflecting back on what the person has shared. So, with some coaching in that area, it can help people get a taste of what it’s like to receive spiritual direction or that dynamic of being listened to and the listener also keeping an ear out for what the Holy Spirit is saying and then offering that back to you. So that’s kind of one thing I’ve been mulling on and thinking about for churches in general.
But for ministry leaders or as a team in ministry, imagine that everybody in your ministry team was in spiritual direction or went away on a retreat somewhere and was being led through a contemplative space with someone to help guide. The experience of doing that can really open up these deeper levels of reckoning. I think with what’s already going on, it can highlight why people feel frustrated or why people feel really satisfied and joyful in the ministry that they’re doing. And it gives a lot more clarity. It can help people understand if they’re in a good fit for their ministry role, or help a church understand, oh, actually we need this kind of person, or this kind of leadership, this sort of skill set. Because actually this is what God is calling us to do. So, I, I think discernment and clarity, it can become a huge part of that. And then ultimately also sustainability. I’m a huge fan of taking stock, slowing down. In order that you can keep participating in the way that God has designed you to, to participate and also leaving room for others.
So, I think another thing that spiritual direction can do is help you discover and accept like, be okay with the limitations that you are born with, as well as understanding, “Oh, okay, maybe I’m being challenged to explore and grow in this area,” that might have been scary for, for us before. So, creativity can be a result of sustained spiritual direction or a contemplative practice as well.
Jessica Anschutz: I really appreciate how you’ve highlighted not only the benefits for, for individuals, but for the community they serve and for the community as a whole, potentially, as, as they engage in spiritual direction together. There’s an incredible amount of potential for our churches and our, and our church leaders as they engage this work.
Eunhyey, I’m deeply regretting that our time is, is drawing to a close, but I want to ask you one more question. And that is, if someone has been thinking about engaging in spiritual direction, what are kind of the first steps they need to do to make that happen?
Eunhyey Lok: Uh, I think it would be sort of maybe asking around. Something that might be helpful to know is that most spiritual directors that I know hold either a free consultation time, like maybe 20 minutes, 30 minutes, or an actual free session, first session. That’s been my practice. It’s the first time that we meet, after an initial phone call, it’s mostly to, it’s not an actual spiritual direction session so much as would we be a good fit? So, it’s a kind of date. You know, like you’re asking each other questions.
We’ll take this down in a couple of steps. If you already have maybe a place where you want to start looking for names, then you just look up a name and just, you can even throw a dart, and just get started. Like that’s probably the easiest way. It maybe daunting, but it’s getting some momentum going can be helpful for that.
Or you can pray and ask God, “Lord, this is, if this is something you want for me, can you bring me in touch with a good fit, somebody who might be a good director for me?” And then if you’re, you’ve never done direction before, being open to meeting at least two or three people before you make a decision can be, can be helpful. And even if they don’t work out for you, you find somebody, and then the people that you didn’t end up meeting with, you might be able to give their names to somebody else. As you become more involved with it, people are going to ask you, “Do know of a good director?” So, all of those are, are ways to start. But if you don’t know where to start, the websites that I mentioned before might be a good place to just begin the journey, begin the search. And then really continuing to trust that if this desire is there that perhaps God also will provide the person.
Jessica Anschutz: I really appreciate your willingness to take the time to share with our audience today, and I thank you for the ways in which you are listening for the work of the spirit in the midst of, of your work in ministry. And we will be sure to link to the sites you referenced on the podcast page and in the transcript. So, if our listeners want easy access to them, they’ll be able to do that. But thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today.
Eunhyey Lok: Thank you for having me. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much.
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